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Samo,


FYI, Mercedes W140 original keys are again available, justmade an extra one for mine. About 300 € , but exactly the same as the 20 years old one.
Same for R129, they are again available.


High quality parts are not a problem for a 30 years old R-R / Bentley.
Find another excuse not to buy one !!!!!!!!!!!
 

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Discussion Starter #22
FYI, Mercedes W140 original keys are again available, justmade an extra one for mine. About 300 € , but exactly the same as the 20 years old one.
Same for R129, they are again available.


High quality parts are not a problem for a 30 years old R-R / Bentley.
Find another excuse not to buy one !!!!!!!!!!!
Jean7, the news about keys is great. I do not need it but it is good to know and i will report about it on the MB forum. Do you talk about a spare key (key only) for a trunk or a key with infra red transmitter?


Well ...I guess it is money which is main excuse to not buy a RR. Better said, a fear to not throw tons of money into the car because I want everything to be near perfect once it is about cars. I am only a mechanical engineer with modest income, so not a rich legatee. I definitely can care perfectly for my W140 for last 12 years, nothing is a problem... but I miss something ... you know that feeling guys :). I do not have any problems with fuel consumption and such things, I even do not care to put 3,000 eur per year into a car (which is actually not a big money unfortunately). But I cannot get rid of my W140 because I would not get much for it ... however i put a LOT of money into it. So, I hope it is more clear now. oh yes, another thing is that I do not own a garage or some place with roof to decently park a RR. W140 is pretty resistant to weather conditions, but I am not sure how would I sleep with RR parked under the sky (it is like a private place but without a roof). Ok, I poured out my heart.



Please, tell me that driving Silver Spirit is something totally different in only positive sense than driving a w140. I did not drive any RR so far, I only have checked 2 of them. So please do not laugh, I told you these cars are extremely rare here. The one in Munich, Germany was parked among other cars, it was rainy day and the seller knew that I will not buy it, so he did not offer me a ride and I did not ask him neither. We were on vacations in that region with my family anyway.
 

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I think a 92 Rolls Royce will be a simpler car by an order of magnitude when compared to a W140 but don't expect the same level of DIY knowledge from RR forums or owners clubs as you would see from the MB forums. This makes it a little harder to troubleshoot a problem.

I have no experience with the W140 (although I have an S350 diesel parked behind my shop because friends think they should get free parking). I do have experience with W108/W109, W116 and W126, in the sense that I've taken them apart and cut them up into little pieces.. The build difference between a Rolls Royce and a W126 could be compared to the difference between a W126 and a Ford Cortina.
 

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Discussion Starter #24
I think a 92 Rolls Royce will be a simpler car by an order of magnitude when compared to a W140 but don't expect the same level of DIY knowledge from RR forums or owners clubs as you would see from the MB forums. This makes it a little harder to troubleshoot a problem.

Are you saying that pre-92 RRs are more complex than a 92 one? So, I am just checking if I understood you well.



I can accept other statement that RR is much more complex than w126. However I think there is no significant difference between w126 and w140 so somehow the logic circle is not completed :).
 

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Are you saying that pre-92 RRs are more complex than a 92 one? So, I am just checking if I understood you well.



I can accept other statement that RR is much more complex than w126. However I think there is no significant difference between w126 and w140 so somehow the logic circle is not completed :).

No, what i'm saying is that the cars built 1992 or earlier will be less complex than a W140 (but the later cars can be more difficult to troubleshoot).

The earlier cars used a GM TH400 transmission which a mechanical transmission that is pretty simple to rebuild. They also used CIS fuel injection which is pretty simple to understand. You'll be able to interchange parts like fuel pumps and fuel injectors with Mercedes Benz from the same era. Testing CIS is as with any CIS cars and requires a fuel pressure gauge to diagnose most issues so no special tools are needed.

Later models use GM 4l80E and electronic engine/transmission management system that's bespoke to Rolls Royce. Bespoke parts in general for low volume cars are somewhat challenging, I'm having a bear of a time diagnosing issues on my 98 without RR diagnostic tools, which are expensive and hard to find.

Complexity is half the story, knowledge is the other half which makes the later cars harder to work on. While your W140 is complex, it's an open system in the sense that there are manuals , forums and diagnostic tools readily accessible to you.

I'm not sure if you have CIS or LH Jetronic (as I skipped the W140 and went straight from W126 to W220) but in either case, both are well documented and easy to troubleshoot given the number of solid DIY forums available to Mercedes Benz owners. Furthermore diagnostic tools are readily available to access the 38pin diagnostic system in order to read codes or live data such as the one pictured below.
 

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Discussion Starter #26
No, what i'm saying is that the cars built 1992 or earlier will be less complex than a W140 (but the later cars can be more difficult to troubleshoot).

This is good to hear.


I am not thinking about later RR than 1989. It is funny, but I am so familiar with my w140 that I do not have any fear if something goes wrong. I simply enjoy the procedure of buying parts and everything what follows.


Agreed, you can find any solution for a W140 on a forum, Alldata.diy or internet. Mine is OBDI, so I made a simple error scanner for $10 and i count blinks on it, then I check the tables with description of errors. BTW, OBDI is only conditionally useful in these cars. the only proper tool to diagnose these cars is Mercedes Star Diagnostic System (SDS), there are pretty reliable Chinese clones of it on a market for a decent money (less than $1,000 including dell laptop) but you have to know from whom to buy.



I have LH jetronic, I think later W140s have HFM but I am not sure from which year on ... never mind.


So to go back on track ... your info is very helpful, this is exactly what I need: conversation. Because we are only afraid of things which we do not know.
 

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Hi Samo,


For MB W140, they redo the complete key / infra red remote you need to open / close door and start the car. The main key....


Spirit for example cannot be comparaed to MB W140, they are much older.

You have the feeling to drive an old quality Mercedes from the 70 ies.


Alabassi comment is very interesting because he knows very well Mercedes and discovered R-R / Bentley recently.


Those cars have a sort of souls, spirit, that modern Mercedes W140 do not have anymore because they are too modern cars.


I think you might enjoy both if you can afford both and if you like old conception cars which need to be really driven.
 

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Discussion Starter #28 (Edited)
Jean7, thanks for clarification about w140 keys, I have forwarded it. I am sure you saved a lot of nerves, time and money to many people because shortage with keys lasted some time, so people used to believe that keys are not available any more.


I have owned a S280 (straight 6 cyl.) W108 for 6 years and driving it was amazing. Just to be in the car was amazing. So driving a RR is similar? I still have nightmares sometimes because I have sold it and I miss it. Like you say there was sort of soul in that car. BTW, once I wanted to get a W221; they are really cheap and I am familiar with MB logic, so no problem at all. However, after being 3 minutes in it I escaped out of it and drove home without any positive or negative feelings. Some things are just without anything. Feeling in a W220 is much much better but I am loaded with prejudgement about its bad quality and I do not like its appearance.


Yes, I can afford both RR and W140 actually. W140 for my wife, RR for me. That is a plan, but stars are not aligned yet it seems :). And to be clear, I like old cars only. When I see modern shapes and plastic interior I became cold as ice. And it is not just that. I think there is no need to explain anything about it in this forum, things are crystal clear I guess.
 

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My comments are purely regarding build quality and not driving dynamics. You can say that the W108/W109 era was the closest that MB got to hand built car (whatever that means) but comparing the components used, you can really say that a Rolls Royce was built with no cost in mind. Example:The grill on a W108 is a mixture of thin metal and plastic. The RR grill is all steel and probably weighs about 15lbs. Put the car up in the air and the suspension on the Rolls Royce is sized more like my Ford F350 Super duty than a car. Everything is overbuilt and that's what makes them fascinating to me.

To compare driving dynamics, here is a nice article that I pulled from motor magazine 1977 that compares the SS2 to the 450SEL 6.9, XJ12 and Cadillac Seville: http://stroke8.org/RR/SSGRPtest.htm

As far as W220, when it came out, it was on the bleeding edge, but it's a good example of how information can overcome complexity. I daily drive an 05 S55 AMG. Access to information and diagnostic tools make this car easy to work on. Aside from a replacement radiator, a/c compressor, ABC hoses and accumulators (all done just after purchase 3 years ago). It's just been tires. It eats back tires at an alarming rate.

This long weekend, I'll be chopping up another W108. It's the best way for me to learn and I suspect that I'll be doing the same to a Rolls Royce before too long.
 

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Not only is the RR grille steel it is stainless steel as some other parts on the car.


The grille was hand made and actually soldered together with hours of polishing.


It was British craftmanship at its very best IMHO






Steve
 

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Discussion Starter #31
Alabbasi, thanks for the article. I will read it later ... in peace. People say that W140 is overbuilt in comparison to other Benzes. They also say W140 is the only right Mercedes. I guess RR is overbuilt in comparison to W140. That is what I like.


Chopping W108? This is your workshop in the pictures?


As for a grille ... yes I knew it. I even watched about it on a TV. What about movies and other pictorial info about other things (parts of RR and assembly process)? is there any systematical source for them?


best
Samo
 

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Chopping W108? This is your workshop in the pictures?
Yep, the blue car will donate panels to the black 300SEL 3.5 which has hail damage and also be used to put together the interior of the silver 300SEL 6.3 which was bought partially disassembled. I already have the shell sold to someone who wants to repair a 280S that was rear ended and needs quarter panels. It helps feed the hobby.

I'd like to try a W140. I almost bought a 2 door S600 a few weeks back but realized that I have zero space left in the building.
 

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You should find place for a W140. CL 600, because you desserve each other.
M120 engine is the first V12 Mercedes did after WWII and it is considered as the best.


Too complex for me , but seing what you are able to do on cars, get one, because this car is for me an excpetional car, of a superior quality, over engineeered.


Even today it does not look too old or technically overpassed.


Same for R129.
 

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You should find place for a W140. CL 600, because you desserve each other.
M120 engine is the first V12 Mercedes did after WWII and it is considered as the best.


Too complex for me , but seing what you are able to do on cars, get one, because this car is for me an excpetional car, of a superior quality, over engineeered.


Even today it does not look too old or technically overpassed.


Same for R129.
Jean, I have a beautiful 98 R129 SL500 with the last year of the M119 engine. It's my 'date' car. I bought it with 57000 miles out of a salvage auction in los angeles as it rear ended a car. It was a high hit that did not damage the radiator, condenser or fenders. Just hood, grille and headlights.

I also own an 05 CL65 which is my V12 supercar. It terrifies me when I drive it and when I park it. I went through a phase where I thought I should stop buying project cars and just buy the nicest car I could afford. The CL65 was purchased with about 30k miles on the clock in perfect condition. It's more like a museum piece than a car. I realized that I'd be miserable if all I had was nice cars and nothing to tinker with so I went back to old habits.
 

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Discussion Starter #35
After reading the alabbasi's link about tests of four cars I am confused and I guess a little bit in shock. This paper worth much more than some nowadays retrospective and its general evaluation of Silver Shadow is not something which is in correlation with its royal appearance.
 

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As for a grille ... yes I knew it. I even watched about it on a TV. What about movies and other pictorial info about other things (parts of RR and assembly process)? is there any systematical source for them?


best
Samo

Samo,


If you put 'youtube rolls royce wood veneering' or 'youtube rolls royce leather trimming' into your search engine you should get a wealth of factory movies showing processes.


Steve
 

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Discussion Starter #39
What concerns do you have?

"peculiar handling" is what attracted my attention. My concern (or my excuse with another words) is actually one and the same from the time when i started to consider a RR to be my only car and daily driver car:


is Silver Spirit 1988 or 1989 appropriate for me?


I like cars not intended for racing, so cars where one can enjoy in modest speed while other cars try to nervously outpass. So this is not a problem in general. Due to lack of driving any RR so far I do not have a right impression, I am afraid. So I am afraid if RR is maybe TOO slow, too lazy and actually not so good on a road as my W140. I am speaking about technical definition of how the car responds to steering and road surface at a given speed. I have never doubted in my passion to RR appearance, safety and soul, etc.


If you put 'youtube rolls royce wood veneering' or 'youtube rolls royce leather trimming' into your search engine you should get a wealth of factory movies showing processes.


Steve

Thanks for your suggestion, Steve. I will do it, of course. However, that is all? No more about chassis, exhaust, engine, suspension ... ? I only have found a pretty long movie about brakes and hubs, I am sure you know what I am speaking about :).


best, Samo
 

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"peculiar handling" is what attracted my attention. My concern (or my excuse with another words) is actually one and the same from the time when i started to consider a RR to be my only car and daily driver car:


is Silver Spirit 1988 or 1989 appropriate for me?


I like cars not intended for racing, so cars where one can enjoy in modest speed while other cars try to nervously outpass. So this is not a problem in general. Due to lack of driving any RR so far I do not have a right impression, I am afraid. So I am afraid if RR is maybe TOO slow, too lazy and actually not so good on a road as my W140. I am speaking about technical definition of how the car responds to steering and road surface at a given speed. I have never doubted in my passion to RR appearance, safety and soul, etc.
This is where even period road tests by motoring magazines can be subjective. If you take a Jaguar and a Mercedes on a road racing or handing track and compare them to a Rolls Royce or a Cadillac, then of course, there is no question that they Rolls will 'roll' and the Cadillac would probably take that corner with the finesse of an elephant on roller skates. The 6.9 was a revelation at the time so in terms of performance, nothing could get near it. Even by today's standards, I embarrassed many (10 year old) Mustangs with mine.

But that's not how people drive a Rolls Royce, they do have super light steering (as does the XJ12 for that matter) making them feel less planted than the German but they are designed for uncompromising ride and not handling.

If you're looking for a closer experience to your W140, consider a Bentley Turbo R. My Brooklands definitely handles better and has much more power compared to a Corniche or Shadow (No experience with a spur). Yet better still, drive one! Everything that everyone is telling you here is subjective.
 
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