Rolls-Royce and Bentley Forums banner

1 - 20 of 27 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
669 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hi,


OK I have never even taken a wheel nut off a cloud just done various electrical work. So no mechanical experience on this model



My friend has just phoned saying he has no brake fluid in his reservoir. No signs off fluid loss on his garage floor either so I assume must have lost it when driving.


I am going to look it over at the weekend but thought I better go armed with some brake fluid.


I just checked and it says Girling/Castrol crimson as hard to get as RR363. However reading up it says this also was changed from crimson to RR363 later.


Question is does a cloud really need RR363 as the Shadow does, or will DOT3/4 be OK as I did not think these cars had the brake pumps and levelling system. No need to put expensive RR363 in if not needed surely.



Advice/help/info please greatly appreciated



Steve
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
669 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Thanks wraithman that helps as I could not figure why RR363.


I have been looking at the manuals for the car and looks like I have a bit of learning to do here.


There is what looks like a mechanical clutch/governor that interacts with the brake system. linkage.


Anyone then that can explain it a little for me as I can't get the manual to answer my questions:devil never worked on this car before as I said. Looks like if it is just hydraulic leak problem then simple to trace a leak but how does the linkages interact for say bleeding. Does engine have to be running?


Any web links to info would help



Steve
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
669 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Thanks Jim,


I had not found that link and was still trying to piece it all together from the Bentley heritage site parts explosions.


Some good bedtime reading to do now


All the best


Steve
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,079 Posts
Steve Go to Youtube and search RollsRoyceNut and watch the many Cloud videos that Ronnie Shaver has posted. Very informative.
You will like.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
92 Posts
Depending on how you go about bleeding the brake system.
Try not push the pedal right down as you will push the piston
to bottom of the bore. On almost all makes of cars there will build up there.
It will damage seals on piston. I only go about 3/4 pedal travel
The thing on back of trans is mechanical sorvo.It only works when the drive shaft (propeller shaft) is turning.
It work when you press the pedle down and pesses the discs together. It like slipping clutch transmitting some energy
into brake system hydraulic and rods.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
669 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Hi,


I fell asleep once I got to the part the car has two brake fluid reservoirs.:eek: So I need to ask if both or just one is empty.


Can I assume that the double reservoirs are either front and back or front left and rear right wheel separation. Just if only one has emptied it will help where to look first for any fluid loss.



I will keep looking at the videos but not even knowing the basics of this system yet still struggling but will get there by the weekend.


Thanks for tip on bleeding, it is these sort of other owners knowledge and experience that are so useful.


I still don't yet fully understand the servo how it interacts but will keep reading and watching youtubes till I do.


Thanks for all advice so far.


Steve
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
669 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
OK got the pipe layout to each wheel now from Jim's link. It was not that easy looking on a small netbook as the picture is split and side ways displayed.


Will hard copy print off and stick together and it will no doubt help better for pipe layout, but working out all that linkage is not so easy.


And I thought Shadow brake systems were complicated enough:( I can see an overnight stay is going to be likely so I will pack my pyjamas.



Steve
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
669 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Hi,


OK working through the mechanical operations so bogged down with research.


Quick question if someone can help are the master cylinder repair kits bespoke and need to get from RR parts dealer or has anyone service parts details or part numbers.


help appreciated



Steve
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
350 Posts
The seal kits are £33.74 and £29.94 from Introcar, that's not that bad really.
It gets expensive if the master cylinders need replacing, but if they're badly corroded, they can be sleeved.

From personal experience, trying to find a less expensive alternative isn't always the best thing, the kits are very often incomplete where some parts are correct and others are not.

https://www.introcar.co.uk/lookbook/s1-brake-master-cylinders-li49
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
669 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Thanks Jeff,


It was not so much the cost it was having them on hand if needed for the weekend.


I had looked at Flying Spares and they only listed the 1 inch and not the 3/4 inch so I wondered if I had the original Girling/Lockheed part number or whoever made the parts I could get them from our classic car seal suppliers.


Never thought of maybe bad M/Cylinders bore and the cost of those will hurt him. Have to investigate sleeving if required but from what I can gather there is absolutely no sign of leakage from each wheel so pinning my hopes on one of the M/C's now I know there are two of them.


I have worked out that the servo device has no hydraulics involved just seems to create a variation in linkage operation link from foot pedal. Like I said working on the hoof here and if anyone knows if any special tools are needed that I should take that would help.........I have a huge Heyco spanner and socket kit that covers all the imperial sizes that goes with me.


Thanks for the link I will see if introcar can get the kits out special delivery next day.


Steve
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
350 Posts
I have a 51 MK VI Bentley which is all BSF (British Standard Fine), or Whitworth if you prefer, I'm not familiar with the Clouds, but I'm betting that the car is BSF so there's that to consider once you get in there.
If it is BSF, then your imperial sizes won't fit, some will fit very loose and others will be too tight.
Others say some metric sizes will fit, but I never found that to be so.

The good thing about BSF sizes, is that there are not many wrenches and sockets needed, with out checking, there are only about 5 or 6 sizes.

If you plan on removing the master cylinders, you will need some brake wrenches as well, you will end up rounding off the nut with just a standard open end wrench.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
669 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Thanks Jeff,


My Heyco set has them all in. It is so heavy I need a sack truck to move it. I just refer to it as my imperial box.


Not sure about my pipe spanners though but have a few so will add those.


I got a couple of pictures sent over from another friend who has similar car........not liking what I am seeing for thinking of doing this work without a ramp to lift the car up.


All the best


Steve
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
350 Posts
Other then the missing brake fluid, what else is wrong with the braking system ?
How well does it stop the car ?

The two reservoirs, one for each cylinder are independent from each other, so if one master cylinder fails or runs out of fluid (for what ever reason) the car will still have brakes.
One MC operates the leading front shoe on the front brakes, while the other MC operates the trailing shoe.
On the diagram in the PDF file, the one line is split to operate the rears, I am also guessing that, that MC activates the rear brakes, also putting on the leading shoe in the front.

In most cases, there's only one slave cylinder per side on the front brakes (North American cars) with double pistons activating the shoes, but Rolls Royce has decided to put in two independent cylinders, one for each shoe on the front, and each slave cylinder has it's own MC on the front.

I would think that the adjustments on the master's should not be changed, doing so would upset which shoe would come on first.
At any rate there should be instructions in the manual on how to set up the master cylinders.
I'm thinking that new seals can be installed with out disturbing the adjustment (assuming that they need new seals).

The same with the servo, if it works, there's no need to adjust the linkages.
If you remove it, then you will have to adjust it when it comes on, but that's pretty easy.
If I remember correctly, the servo is rocked back and forth while turning the adjusting nut(s) to take up the slack, and then backed off how many flats of the nut to give the correct amount of free play.
The manual will say how many flats.

Once everything is back together, the only adjustment to be made are for the shoes themselves out on the wheels.

After looking at the diagram, when the brakes are applied, the mechanical rear brake actuator comes on first (a little).
That's a direct linkage from the pedal to the rear brakes (no hydraulics involved yet)
As the brake pedal is further depressed, the servo is activated, applying pressure to the master cylinder that's connected to the front and rear.
And as I said before, probably the leading shoes on the front.
Further depression on the brakes activates the other MC that controls the trailing shoes and at this point the brakes are on full.

Only Rolls Royce would take what could have been a simple system and over design it and make it more complicated then it has to be, but no where near is complex as a Shadow.

If you don't quite understand what I'm talking about when it come to the servo, once you get in there, it will become clear.
When the car is jacked up, you will be able to grab the servo and move it back forth. (and this is normal)

Also, bleeding the brakes can't be done by pumping the pedal, one has to push the levers by hand that are connected directly to the master cylinders.
It would almost be easier to adapt one of those Gunsen easy bleeders for this, but you would have to devise a way to attach the bleeder to the reservoirs.
You would also need an air compressor, but Gunson also uses the air from the spare tire too.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
350 Posts
I suspect that the brakes have not be serviced in years, this leads to corrosion out on the slave cylinders in the wheels.
The old brake fluid absorbs water, rusting the cylinders.
I think that's where the fluid has leaked out, it can't be seen because road dirt is hiding the evidence.
Be prepared for the worst.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
669 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
Jeff,


Thank you for taking the time to provide all the detailed information.


My understanding so far is his car had both M/C's seals done and all new brake pipes about 3 years ago and the brakes worked fine prior to being parked up for a few months.


Will have to just have an initial looksee as to why one reservoir has lost its fluid.


Thank you for pointing out the bleeding process a I would not have known that but suspected due to the linkage and servo it was not going to be as simple.


I have no knowledge of how well the brakes work now as he does not want to take the car out yet until we have sussed the fluid loss.


I am feeling a bit out of my depth and too old to be doing major work like this so will just tackle the leak issue and see how we go from there.


I am assuming it should be easy to take each wheel drum off to inspect inside the drums pistons for any signs of leakage. Like I said I have never even had a wheel nut off this model but still reading up in the manauls.



Many many thanks


Steve
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,079 Posts
You can also adjust the "squareness of the brake shoes" to the inner drum on these models for perfect surface contact. No doubt there would be evidence either way once the drum was off.

Personally, I would just look for the leak since anything more than that would require raising the car safely.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
350 Posts
Hi Steve, on my MK VI Bentley, the lug nuts on the right side of the car are left hand thread (they turn counter clock wise to loosen), I suspect that this may be the same on the Cloud, so keep that in mind.
Also, if in fact that the master cylinders seals were replaced just 3 years ago, I would suspect the leak(s) to be out on the wheels somewhere.
It would be odd though that if the masters were rebuilt, the slaves would need new seals too, and should have been done.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
669 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
Thanks Jeff,


Yes wheel nuts same as on my Shadow...... opposite hand threads on one side.


Not totally sure yet of all previous work done when brakes were supposedly overhauled on the Cloud a few years ago.


Will find out when I look at his invoice history in more detail at the weekend but I doubt the owner would really know the full information as totally non mechanical apart from using surgical instruments. I think he also has to keep his hands clean........hopefully one day he may pay me back for the help but then perhaps something I won't hope too hard for at the moment.



Steve
 
1 - 20 of 27 Posts
Top