Rolls-Royce and Bentley Forums banner

Very Strange Start No Start Issue 77SSII

14K views 42 replies 8 participants last post by  shadow 11 
#1 ·
Hey All,
I've got a weird issue here. 1977 SSII. First. The previous owner has replaced the starter 2 times in the last 5 years..(I'm thinking for this very reason) Every now and then the car will not start/turnover in park so I would put it in neutral from park and it would start right up. TODAY.. Car in park, turn the key..nothing.. then I put the car in neutral.. It turned right over and started. Turned the car off and tried to start it again in park.. dead silence. Shifted to neutral.. nothing. Now it won't start at all. I'm stumped. Any thoughts?

Thnx in advance and Happy Thanksgiving!!

Phillip
 
#2 ·
There is a neutral safety switch in the column and gear actuator box that shifts the gearbox. You may need to adjust or replace the column switch based on your experience. Check the factory service manual on the Bentley Heritage site for your car.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Wellll.. It's not the neutral safety switch in the steering column. I bypassed the switch and the same hit and miss starting problem is still going on. I drove her around for a bit today and after I got home I turned the car off and immediately tried to start it again..nothing. then I waited about 5 minutes tried it again..started right up. :/
 
#8 ·
Hi,


Dounraey's information request would be useful to know I agree.


Also have you tried wiggling the ignition key around as there are some contacts on the back of the switchbox that work off the key insert and can be a problem that prevents engine even running and my own car failed here one day when driving along and then became intermittent when trying to start without wiggling the key around for restarting.


I will get my spare switchbox out and put up some pictures of the rear but I am sure there is a thread on this giving all the detail so will have a look as not sure which RR/B forum it may be on.


Steve
 
#10 · (Edited)
Hey.. Thnx guys for the advice. Wraithman, The engine will not turn over when I'm having this issue and I do have replacing the coil on my list. Dounraey, There is a strange buzzing noise when I turn the key to the starting position and no fuel pump noise when I turn the key to start position. Steve, I think you are on to something there. I'm gonna give that a try and post an update.

Thnx Again Guys!!!
 
#11 · (Edited)
Hi Phillip,


It is by no means a simple job working on the switchbox


This link will no doubt help a little, as you get to the end of the thread there are some useful pictures especially of the contacts above the key barrel which was my fault.


http://au.rrforums.net/forum/messages/17001/23452.html?1491048976


If you google 'rolls royce shadow switchbox repair non starter' you get quite a few old posts up on RR forums. It also brings up ronny's garage youtube on a Cloud. There were a few differences from Cloud to Shadow to Spirit but basically very similar.


Hope this helps but again when you say the car won't start you need to know more what is happening ie is the ignition/oil lights coming in the RUN position and is that the car just won't crank or is it just all dead when the problem occurs.


All the best


Steve
 
#12 ·
Hi Phillip


Re: "There is a strange buzzing noise when I turn the key to the starting position"

Next time the fault occurs get an assistant to turn the key and position yourself just rear of the front right wheel and listen if the noise is coming from the starter motor. One possibility is the starter solenoid is not getting sufficient electrical current. What happens is the solenoid energizes and switches off once the load of the starter kills the current. This happens rapidly in quick succession causing a buzzing noise. It could of course be coming from elsewhere, but it helps if you can determine where the noise is coming from.


I had a similar problem with my 74 SS1 and tracked it down to an idiotic bodge a previous owner had carried out on my car. He/She had wired the starter solenoid direct to the switchbox, bypassing the starter relay, which I presume had failed. The load on the switchbox connector had caused it to eventually deteriorate until it started giving problems with the starter motor (clicks and buzzes etc). I found it really irritating - potentially destroying an expensive switchbox for a starter relay that would have cost him/her a few bucks. In the event I found the bodge early enough to save the switchbox.


It does show, there are many possibilities for the intermittent fault you are experiencing.



Geoff
 
#14 ·
Not to argue, but I will still point out that in many regions (including PA where I grew up) the phrase "turn over" means precisely the same thing as "start." A car can crank, or turn, but not turn over (as in won't start).


I am presuming you're saying a check needs to be made as to whether there is any spark if the engine turns/cranks.


From what I've read so far I am simply presuming the car does not crank/turn at all, much like when one has a dead starter or a nearly dead battery, but other sounds can be heard.
 
#16 · (Edited)
Here is an update.. I pulled the switch box form the car and cleaned up the contacts as described by Steve E 's post. After I got to all out back together, I took her for a drive for about an hour. After I pulled into my garage I turned off the car and then immediately tried to start it again.. NOTHING! I waited 2 or 3 minutes tried to start her again and VEROOM back to life.

While the no start issue is happening.. I turn the key to the run position and there is no sound at all. When I turn the key to the start position.. there is only a slight buzzing noise that seems to come from the dash area and the only light that comes on is the oil light. No sound from the starter or any clicking relays or fuel pump. Normally when I turn the key to the run position I would hear the relays click and the fuel pump whine.

Regina Rolls is kicking my A$$ on this one.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Hi Phillip,


You are not saying when you turn your key to the first run position if your red ignition light is coming on.


Usually this is quite important to know on older cars as if the bulb/lamp has blown then you do not excite the alternator field so this prevents the alternator providing voltage/current supply for recharging the battery so the car will only likely run for a while and not be recharging the battery.


That said I am sure at your model year the resistors were added in series with the lamp to overcome this and it was a recommended modification to do on our older british cars of many models.


However what you are explaining does now sound more like a starter relay as Dounraey describes. The buzzing will no doubt appear from under the dash/facia as the relay is mounted in the engine bay just under the washer bottle close to the drivers area on a RHD car but i think the same position on a LHD.


A few things though that are confusing as if you have the SU pumps fitted they do not whirr just a ticking sound and it stops when the pressure is in the system. Again depending on what your chassis number is depends whether you have the fuel interlock circuit and the added fuel pump relay. The whirring may be explained though if someone has changed the SU pump for a rotary so maybe explains this or you have the pierburg pump.


This aside it should not prevent the car from cranking over but perhaps not firing up.


I think your next steps are checking out the starter relay itself but also confirm the situation with the red ignition light please.


All the best


Steve
 
#18 ·
When cold, you stated it fires up and runs. After driving you stated it turns over, but does not fire. This indicates no spark. Pull the hi-tension center wire (from coil) at the cap and about 1/4" away from earth. You should see a healthy blue arc. Easier in a darkened room. Coil failure is not usual in a 40+ yr old car especially under the bonnet in a RR where it gets very warm..
 
#20 ·
Hi Phillip,


I am still a little confused here as to exactly what you say is happening when you 'NOTHING' when you turn the key and still need to know about the ignition light in RUN position when you have no start.......




Hi Jean7,


The ballast resistor is bypassed during cranking and usually if faulty the engine will fire up while the key is being turned to crank/Start position and then the engine immediately will die when set back to RUN, that said the early ones were a coil exposed in the ceramic and the coil resistance did rust and become open circuit which gave this problem. Later ones can be found where the coil is embedded into the ceramic and much better.


All the best


Steve
 
#21 · (Edited)
Steve, I disagree, on my Shadow I had the issue, car will not crank or start and it was the ballast resistor.
I insist, and strongly suggest to have a new one in the boot.
The best would be to put a new one and keep the old one if it works in the bot.


Steve, if not too complicated because of the access, check on your car if it crancks wirthout this resistor plug in
 
#22 ·
Hi Jean7,


I have fixed quite a few cars over the years with this problem especially early RR as I said the metal resistance was exposed in the ceramic channel so rusted through.


If wired up correctly the basic logics of how the system is intended to work is the ballast resistor is simply in series with the coil. This is why it is important to have the correct coil for a ballast resistor and not just a standard 12v coil. (I have seen wrongs coils fitted too to cars).


On cranking the 12v feed from the starter is fed direct to the coil and the ballast resistor bypassed. The coil in effect is a lesser voltage coil although referred to as a ballast coil or resistor coil.


The idea this is to give a temporary higher power for start up when cranking and then falls back to the circuit through the ballast resistor.


This is why the car will fire up when cranking as there is a temporary direct voltage to the coil but if ballast resistor is open circuit/failed then the engine will immediately die as will then lose supply to coil.


That said with various different later ignition systems or electronic ignition systems things may work differently.


You can disagree by all means from your own experience but for sure this is how it was intended to work in its design.


Some owners I know have fitted standard coils and done away with the ballast resistor so each car nowadays have to be researched when fault finding.


I have also seen ballast coils fitted to cars that were not designed with the ballast resistor circuits and then the owners wondering why their coils are getting hot.


I can't quite work out why a car would not crank over with just a faulty ballast resistor but for sure it would not continue to run without a spark.



All the best


Steve
 
#24 ·
Hi Steeve, you have much more knowledge than me.

After reading here and there, you are certainly right, ballast resistor broken would not empeach cranking.
Car will not start or will die, but will cranck.


So my assumption is wrong, if car does not even crank, it's not because of the ballast resistor.


Could be Sitch box, starter relay, starter it self, transmission shifter security as you need to be in park to start, the famous oil pressure sensor on some cars... a bad ground....
 
#25 · (Edited)
Hi jean7,


You are too polite:x.


I always read the wealth of information you put up in your own replies to posts and I certainly don't have more knowledge than your goodself.


It is just that I was Royal Navy trained in electrical/electronics and have specialised in auto electrics and electrical electronic circuit design. When I need engine/gearbox/diff help I certainly look for what you write and seek help.



Besides that, as I said I have fixed many UK cars over the years with ballast resistor problems.


What worried me when I read your fault was indeed is your car wired up correctly as the only way I could see what you described occuring was if the ballast resistor had been inadvertantly wired into the starter relay or solenoid circuit in error. It is only a slight resistance on the ballast resistor giving 2-3 volt drop and capable of a reasonable amperage so would not necessarily prevent either the relay or starter solenoid probably still working. However this is the only way I could see it could interfere with the engine actually cranking if ballast resistor gone open circuit and caused your situation.


Just a thought.


All the best


Steve
 
#26 ·
My memory might be faulty, I had a rsistor trouble, now the car was certainly cranking.

I had also a relay issue and the car was not cranking.
I was certainly confused and thought I had found our friend issue, but memory is sometime right, sometime wrong.


Thank you for correcting me as I hate to say things wrong or I am not sure.

In this case I was sure, but now I realise and I was wrong !
 
#27 · (Edited)

Attachments

#28 ·
Hi Alex,


You are absolutely correct..... indeed the car looks like it is fitted with a 9BR UE40912 and it is a combined amplifier/ballast resistor unlike the simple ceramic type just in series with the coil.


So if this unit is faulty then it could have an impact on starting as it clearly shows an output feed to the solenoid despite saying it is shorted during cranking that means nothing if the internals of the unit are faulty.


The benefits of everyones experience is so useful on these forums,


Steve
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top