Oil, ZDDP and Europe - Rolls-Royce and Bentley Forums
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 7 (permalink) Old 04-04-2016, 02:49 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 281
Oil, ZDDP and Europe

Our V8s have flat tappets, those need engine oils with a higher, say 1200ppm, of ZDDP.
Oil commercially available in Europe nowadays has a maximum of 800ppm.

Somebody chime in if I say anything stupid.

In the US and Australia, some truck diesel oils are available with 1200ppm of ZDDP. Shell Rotella T, Mobil Delvac and Chevron Delo, all 15-40 oils.
I was finally able to source Rotella in Europe, at: http://www.aircraftspruce.eu/index.p...otella&x=0&y=0

There are additives available, namely ZDDPlus, available in Europe at:
http://www.addsomebeertime.ch/produk...l-additiv.html
or
CamGuard
http://www.aslcamguard.com/products/automotive
available in Europe from www.aircraftspruce.eu

Now having said that, what does a 1200ppm oil or any of those 2 additives do to catalytic converters?
My 1985 US-spec Corniche has a cat, but is not subject to emission control.
CamGuard claims that their additive does not have any effect on emission control systems. They mean the cat, do they?

Again, I am worried about my camshaft and the flat tappets.
Any opinions on this?
JP_Corniche is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 7 (permalink) Old 04-04-2016, 04:21 PM
Senior Member
 
jeyjey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Ireland
Posts: 512
Garage
ZDDP is only limited in the thinner oils (which are more likely to make their way past the rings and shorten the life of the cat). Most "classic" oils in the 20w50 range still have 1,000 - 1,200 ppm of ZDDP. You can also find 5w40 (and thicker) race oils with higher levels of ZDDP. And the diesel oils such as you've discovered.

If you can use one of the heavier oils, I'd do that over one of the additives. But if you can't, I imagine the additives would have some positive effect.

FWIW, aircraftspruce is my go-to supplier for rivets and riveting tools....

Cheers,
Jeff.
jeyjey is offline  
post #3 of 7 (permalink) Old 04-04-2016, 04:52 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 281
Jeff, Castrol XL Classic 20-50 has a disappointing 800ppm of ZDDP, which makes me wonder about all the others...
JP_Corniche is offline  
 
post #4 of 7 (permalink) Old 04-04-2016, 05:29 PM
Senior Member
 
guyslp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Staunton, VA - USA
Posts: 2,919
Quote:
Originally Posted by JP_Corniche View Post
Again, I am worried about my camshaft and the flat tappets.
Any opinions on this?
Yes, stop worrying.

I will repeat, with updates as of last summer to check whether links were correct, what I've posted many times before:
---------------------------------------------------------
[Links in this document were active as of 5/5/2015]

Reading through the API & ILSAC motor oil standards/specifications for current (API SN/ILSAC GF-5) oils and the preceding specs should put anyone's mind to rest about the suitability of currently available motor oils for use in older car engines. On the API website, they explicitly state, "For automotive gasoline engines, the latest engine oil service category includes the performance properties of each earlier category. If an automotive owner's manual calls for an API SJ or SL oil, an API SM oil will provide full protection."
[See: http://www.api.org/certification-pro...ce-categories]
For oils for gasoline-powered engines, each and every specification meets or exceeds the performance of all of its predecessors. This means that there has been a continuous improvement in lubrication performance and that oils meeting current specifications are far more than "adequate" for older engines.

API Materials:

Motor Oil Matters Guide (2013), "Which Oil is Right for You?" -
http://www.api.org/certification-pro...GLISH_2013.pdf

Full API 1509 Spec - 17th Ed - September 2012
(Addendum 10/2014 & Errata 3/2015,Includes ILSAC GF-5 Spec in Appendix Q)
http://www.api.org/~/media/files/cer...2515.pdf?la=en


ILSAC Final GF-5 Spec:
http://www.gf-5.com/uploads/File/ILS...2-09_final.pdf


and, from the Mobil Oil Q&A Site:

On needing to Mix Oils for ZDDP Levels:
https://mobiloil.com/en/faq/ask-our-...r-classic-cars
I find it interesting that even on this "answers" page the statement is made that a particular one of their oils, "already contains a higher level of ZDDP (1000 ppm) that *could* benefit your flat tappet engine." [emphasis on that could is mine]. I have yet to find a single manufacturer who states either "will" or "does," but instead couches the statements in ways such that the preconceived notion is addressed.

On Purported "Removal" of Zinc & Phosphorous from motor oil:
https://mobiloil.com/en/faq/ask-our-...rom-motor-oils

Mobil Oil Product Table, including Zinc & Phosphorus Levels:
https://mobiloil.com/~/media/amer/us...ecs-guide.ashx
---------------------------------------------------------

And, from Gary Phipps of the RROC-US, who has done more research on this issue that I did:
"Motor Oil Additive Misstatements
The reports of changes in oil additives have been falsely reported as having happened continuously for nearly 15 years. Itís 99.99% rumor with little factual basis. The last diesel change was when diesel oil specs went from CI (2002) to CJ in 2010. There have been no changes since then.

Zinc itself is not limited in any way. Itís the companion element, phosphorous, which is regulated. ZDDP is also not a single ingredient but a class of thousands of different compounds of varying utility making the actual level not so critical. There are also more modern additives that do a similar job that are not zinc based. Zinc is just the CHEAP way to do that job.

All the major diesel oils not only meet a diesel spec (CJ, etc) but also a gasoline engine spec the latest of which is SN. They are approved for either type of engine except possibly for catalyst equipped cars. (If your valve stems seals are bad the increased oil consumption could possibly damage your cat. Change the seals when needed.) There was a second round of false predictions of impending doom when the gasoline spec went from SM to SN. That was complete hot air since the SN spec did not require any such changes; the EP additive spec for SN was identical to SM. However, I know of none of the doomsters who retracted their predictions. Instead of prohibiting them, both specs REQUIRE such additives. It is a companion 'Energy Conservation' GF specification that requires lower levels of phosphorous but it only applies to oils that are 'Energy Conserving'; it does not apply to diesel oils and is not part of the SN spec. Even GF-5 did not change any of those requirements compared to GF-4.

To paraphrase Mark Twain: The report of the death of zinc additives was an exaggeration."
-----------------------------------------------------------------

I will not wade further into this discussion again other than to point out it's been discussed before and that factual information from major lubrication certification bodies and other experts says all that needs to be said. Concerns about ZDDP and oil [and long-life/lifetime antifreeze (provided you get a 2-EHA free formula)] are urban legends that just won't die. If the specs from the ILSAC, SAE, etc., aren't good enough then nothing can be.

Brian

The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth.
~ Niels Bohr


guyslp is online now  
post #5 of 7 (permalink) Old 04-05-2016, 05:22 AM
Senior Member
 
jeyjey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Ireland
Posts: 512
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by JP_Corniche View Post
Jeff, Castrol XL Classic 20-50 has a disappointing 800ppm of ZDDP, which makes me wonder about all the others...
Interesting. Millers Classic 20w50 (which is what I used in my T2) still has 1100ppm.

I still use Millers Classic in my '68 Land Rover, but it has roller tappets, so the issue -- whether real or not -- is moot.

Cheers,
Jeff.
jeyjey is offline  
post #6 of 7 (permalink) Old 04-07-2016, 06:46 AM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 281
Brian,
I appreciate your elaborated response!
Given that:
- I want to err on the side of caution,
- modern engines are designed to respond to the modern oil specifications as published by the regulating bodies,
- modern engines have no flat tappets, and there is a reason for that,
- there are regional differences as to the oil specs and availabilities,
- I don't want to use fully synthetic oil, thus eliminating Mobil 1,
I will only use an oil specifically designed for flat tappets, and having said that, continue to worry.
Apologies for my empirical state of mind.
What precise oil are you running in your engines?
JP_Corniche is offline  
post #7 of 7 (permalink) Old 04-07-2016, 09:50 AM
Senior Member
 
guyslp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Staunton, VA - USA
Posts: 2,919
JP,

I have never been particularly "brand loyal." I started out running 20W50 conventional oil and after a few years switched over to 10W40 high mileage oil in SRH33576 and 10W40 conventional in LRK37110. All are current spec for gasoline engines (API SN/ILSAC GF-5 [I think, maybe GF-4]).

Your comment regarding oil specs being for modern engines is incorrect. The certifying bodies came into existence many decades ago, and they came into existence because there was not consistency in what various petroleum companies were producing and there was no way for any consumer, including engineering and maintenance professionals, to know what the minimum objective properties of a lubricant were. And these are objective third parties. You don't see people arguing that the GM Dexron standards, past or present, or what they state with regard to backward compatibility, and sometimes the lack thereof, are suspect. It also defies reason that there are untold millions and millions of classic cars whose owners have been grabbing oil that's available "off the shelf" for decades and we don't see them having engine failures in large numbers. Were this the case there would be something to be concerned about and the courts (at least in the US) would be flooded with lawsuits against the oil companies much like they were against the tobacco companies because they didn't make a point of labeling accurately.

Both engine technology and lubrication technology have changed, both for the better. When I have international certifying bodies, the one's responsible for the lab and field tests, telling me that current lubricants meet or exceed the properties of all prior certified levels I have no reason to doubt them. I'll take their word over the myriad "friend of a friend" stories out there, none of which ever take anything into account except the specific demon they wish to highlight.

Everyone should, however, do what they're comfortable with based on having read available specifications and making an informed decision.

I am skeptical of most claims that don't pass my sniff test, but am more than happy to be proven wrong through research dealing in objective data, and have been on occasions. No one has been able to produce anything beyond anecdotes regarding oil and flat tappet engines, and all of those anecdotes focus on the "demon substance" that they wish to denounce with nothing that directly backs up oil as the root cause nor considering other (more plausible, to my mind) possibilities.

P.S.: There is no such thing as "an oil designed for flat tappet engines" and has never been. Also, regardless of regional variability, any lubricant meeting a given ILSAC spec, or API spec, meets the minimum standards laid out in the designated level. They might be better on some measures, but they must meet the spec minimums.

Brian

The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth.
~ Niels Bohr



Last edited by guyslp; 04-07-2016 at 09:59 AM.
guyslp is online now  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Rolls-Royce and Bentley Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome
 

Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.

SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1